Italian firearms law is complicated but essentially all citizens are allowed to possess 3 ”armi comuni da sparo” (common firearms), which are usually handguns, 6 “armi sportive” (sports firearms), 8 antique firearms designed before 1891, and an unlimited amount of ”armi da caccia” (hunting firearms),but we’re not allowed to own any “armi da guerra” (military firearms). All firearms in Italy are designated into those categories usually by calibre and in the case of sports firearms by purpose. What this means is that when I buy a new handgun I have to give up one of my existing firearms, or at least get it registered in someone else’s name.
Until last week my 3 common firearms were a Beretta Px4 storm, Beretta Px4 storm subcompact and Beretta 21 A Bobcat. I used to have a Beretta 8045 Mini Cougar which I had to give up, i.e. pass on to my sister, when I bought my. Px4 storm subcompact. After a lot of persuading from Rob, I decided to replace my Beretta 21 A Bobcat — or pussycat as Rob calls it — because it only fires 22LR rounds and just isn’t a manstopper. So last weekend I bought a replacement: the Taurus 856 .38 Special +P in Blue Stainless Steel. It’s apparently the gun issued to the Singapore Police Force, which is strange because most police forces issue semi-automatic pistols.
Taurus 856 .38 Special +P Steel
I chose to go with a revolver instead of another semi-automatic pistol because of I never fired a revolver and the .38 Special +P has nearly as much stopping power as a 9mm semi-auto and a lot more than a 22LR semi-auto. The Taurus 856 is 629 g (22.2 oz), 165mm (6.5″) in length, with a 51mm (2″) barrel. Like the 21 A Bobcat it’s a DA/SA. It has a reasonably comfortable rubber gripped handle and it’s a 6-shooter. The 21A Bobcat 22LR only took 7 rounds although it was a much smaller gun. One of the reasons I chose the Taurus 856 is that I’m petite — 160cm (5′ 3″) and 49 kg (108 lbs) — and it’s supposed to have less recoil than some other snubnose revolvers but it still has more recoil than my Px4 Storm and a slower firing rate between rounds.
At $441 dollars it’s reasonably priced and is overall a much better defensive choice than the Beretta 21A Bobcat 22LR. Still, I don’t think I’ll be keeping it long: I’m a semi auto girl.
stefi
amica
rob
pietro amico
heather
15 September, 2010 at 1:58 am
I’ve got the S&W Model 642CT Centennial which is .38 Special +P too. It’s only got a 5 round cylinder but it’s got a built in red dot laser. I don’t have any problems with recoil. I really like it. Is it revolvers you don’t like or just the Taurus?
Ian Davies
15 September, 2010 at 2:58 am
Good post Stefi. 5′ 3″ and a 108lbs I bet you have a smoking little body. Don’t hate me for saying this but you should have spent more on your gun and less on cutlery. You should have got the SIG P239 DAK 9mm. $823.
El Fishing Musician
15 September, 2010 at 3:21 am
I support your choice. If you’ve read some of the past revolver posts on my blog, you know that even though I carry a PX4 subcompact, a Glock 36 (.45) and either a Colt Cobra or a Smith Bodyguard, I’m a big revolver fan.
Answer me one question, Stefi: Have any of your autos ever jammed, failed to feed or failed to fire? If so, then you know first hand the value of a revolver (5 or 6 or even 7 in some cases) damn near guaranteed shots, barring a primer fail.
If you feel the recoil is too much, try some different grips. The “ribbed” (for your pleasure lol) Taurus rubber grips for the Judge have been getting rave reviews as far as recoil reduction, and according to my friends, work better than crimson trace and other rubber grips.
I’d recommend my favorite concealment and recoil absorbing grips: The Pachmayr Compac grips. Also, if you like me live in an urban area, you should be concerned with any firearm about over penetration of your target. In my .45 ACP and .38′s, I use Federal Low Recoil Self Defense ammo. It’s been adopted by many police agencies here in the states who still allow revolver carry for off duty or undercover.
Give the Taurus a chance. My dad was a Taurus freak and had several Taurus snubbies he regularly carried from the 60′s thereafter. The one I shoot is an all steel gun, with a shrouded ejector rod like yours, and it’s about 35 years old and hanging tight and tough. My dad thought Taurus was as good as S&W, and nowadays, at near half the cost of S&W, I can’t justify buying a Smith over a Taurus.
2 concealed carry holster recommendations.
1. The Bianchi Model 6 IWB holster-cheap and good for purse carry as well as on your person, especially if you need to put it on in a hurry.
2. A Galco Speed Scabbard, high belt carry and covers the hammer. Very stable and extremely comfortable.
Also, get some speedloaders or some speed strips to have extra ammo around. I’ve seen pros do ammo changes almost as fast with speedloaders as with magazines on a semi-auto.
I love my snubnoses. My dad and all his cop and lawyer friends carried them when I was coming up, and they were my backup/off duty gun for years. In fact, I’m wearing my Cobra in a Bianchi #6 right now with some ex officio shorts with a wimpy integral belt. It works just fine.
Despite my personal arsenal, my snubbies are my go to guns much of the time, particularly in the summer. My mom has a Taurus snubbie, as does my sister and daughter and my wife. That is the gun I choose for them because they don’t care to practice and are not interested in sport shooting. They’ve known how to shoot for years, and practice just every blue moon, but they are confident with them and I am comfortable knowing that if evil comes knocking…they each got five for sure shots.
Pull trigger, goes boom.
I don’t know what else I could say more than that about how good I consider Taurus.
With the right grips, a snubbie is infinitely concealable. I don’t know how you carry a handgun, but for purse carry or glovebox carry, it’s a damn site safer than many striker fired autos, in my opinion.
El Fishing Musician
15 September, 2010 at 3:26 am
@Ian
The Sig P239 is an excellent gun, and I recently rented one in 9mm at the range to check them out. I prefer the DA/SA carry variety with the rounded edges, and it’s definately on the list of guns I’d like to have.
The only advantage it offers over the PX4 subcompact is that it is thinner than the PX4. Otherwise, it is heavier, longer in the slide and grip departments, it holds just under half the rounds of a PX4, and I think the recoil from my new PX4 is substantially less than that of a P239.
That’s why I went with the PX4 recently for a daily carry gun as a prosecutor (everyone in LE carries guns in Texas nearly).
I wish Glock would make a single stack nine with a thinner frame, slide and grip. The M36 is a excellent pistol, but it needs a smaller and thinner 9mm sibling. A slim Glock single stack 9 could give the P239 a run for it’s money.
El Fishing Musician
15 September, 2010 at 3:31 am
And to paraphrase the low rent gun dealer told Robert Deniro in Taxi Driver about the S&W Cheif’s Special, you can hit someone in the head with it barrel first and it’ll still shoot dead on. With the shrouded ejector rod (most 5 shot S&W’s do not have a shroud for the ejection rod) the Taurus has the clear advantage over any S&W. A bent ejector rod is no bueno when you’re in a firefight.
Also, to to Bell Charter Oak holsters and check out their many Chic Gaylord designed holsters that have stood the test of time in NYC, where cops used them for years.
Check out the New York Reload holster at BCO holsters. It’s a small of back holster for TWO snubbies. That’s the New York Reload. You empty one gun, and grab a fresh one.
stefi
15 September, 2010 at 11:25 am
@ el Fish
I’ve never had any misfires with either the Px4 Storm or Px4 Storm subcompact but I did with the Bobcat, so that is definitely another plus in favour of the Taurus 856. The Recoil isn’t too bad, it’s just more than a semi auto, so there is more recovery time between shots and it has a slower firing rate. I’m a good shooter, I can shoot fast and accurately. The speed of a revolver worries me if I’m struggling with an assailant and get off one shot and they don’t go down. With my Px4 Storm subcompact I will double tap every time.
I need to improve my competence with the weapon. It might just take some time to get used to because I’ve always shot semi autos. I’m going to carry it in my purse or an inside the waist holster. I’m taking it tactical shooting tomorrow so I’ll post an update of how I did with it.
stefi
15 September, 2010 at 11:28 am
@ heather
I think it’s revolvers because I’m a new revolver shooter and want to be able to shoot like I can with a semi auto, which at the moment I can’t and that is frustrating. Have you always shot revolvers or have you shot semi autos as well?
stefi
15 September, 2010 at 11:33 am
@ Ian
Thanks, and honestly… yes I do have a smoking body
Kitchen ware is a girl thing but you’re right you generally get what you pay for but I didn’t buy the Taurus because it was cheap, I wanted a revolver and it seemed like a good choice for all the reasons el Fish has given. He’s very familiar with revolvers.
heather
15 September, 2010 at 10:57 pm
Stefi…
I’ve always shot revolvers. I love mine that’s why I wondered whether you might just be having a problem with the Taurus. If we had more liberal gun laws I would buy a few more firearms. The shooting range is also a good place to meet attractive single guys.
heather
15 September, 2010 at 11:10 pm
EL Fish
What do you think of the S&W 642CT Centennial? I live in NYC so I don’t have a CCW permit. I have it for home defense.
El Fishing Musician
16 September, 2010 at 1:51 am
@ Heather
My first answer is, I’d like to own one. It’s a great gun. Reliable gun. Accurate gun. And if you take just reasonable care of it, it’ll last the rest of your life, your kids lives and maybe a few more generations. It’s that solid of a gun. What Smith guns lack in fancy design they more than make up for in reliability, and really, if it goes bang when you pull the trigger, that’s all you can ask. And you have that.
The 624 is an excellent weapon. It may be a big large for concealed carry, but as one well known American tactical fighting teacher (Clint Smith) says about his similar S7W chambered in .45 ACP… It’s a big gun when I put it on and it’s a big gun when I pull it out.
It speaks highly of your confidence level that this is your weapon. Many women I know, even cops, do not like “big bore” calibers. Of course, so many that I know now have never owned a revolver or carried one on or off duty. Most cops with 20 years experience now just know 9′s, 40′s and .357 sigs.
As I’ve said, I’m a big fan of the Federal Low Recoil self defense ammo. They’re expanding hollowpoints, of course, and designed for maximum expansion in a target and for knock down power. But with a .44 special, even shooting a solid bullet, you’ve got tremendous knock down power and hole making ability.
The best thing, if you live in an urban area, is to have a home defense round that is capable of taking out an attacker with a one shot stop, yet is slow and large enough that a miss will likely not go into a neighbors house and kill an innocent. To me, in self defense shooting, this is the prime consideration, and one reason why shotguns are such a good home defense weapon.
But shotguns are big and long, even sawed off ones, and a handgun is often more easily manuevered or handled in a home or car or personal defense situation.
Even when, as a street officer, I owned and used .44 magnum S&W Model 29′s with 6″ barrels, I shot .44 specials out of it. I see no sense, unless you’re hunting or having to shoot someone through car doors or other type barricades, of using a .44 magnum.
To me, the .44 Special is a BIG step up from a .38 Special. Although the argument still rages about whether bullet size/type (larger caliber) or bullet speed (magnums, 9mm) is more potent with a “one shot stop”, in my practice the past 29 years I’ve seen a lot more one shot stops with a .45 acp or .44 special than I have with lesser sized calibers, including .357 sig and .357 magnum.
If you don’t mind the heavier all steel guns, you’ll reap the large benefit of reduced felt recoil because of the extra weight.
For all revolvers that are not concealed carry (or are concealed in a purse or in winter under clothing), I recommend the Pachmayr Presentation grips. They are big but handfilling and make shooting such a pleasure. I personally think the Presentation grips are a must on any gun the size of a 624, and all my revolvers with barrel length of 4″ or more have them.
http://www.pachmayr.com/presentation-grips.php
For any concealed carry on your body, then I recommend the Pachmayr Compac. It reduces felt recoil almost as much as the Presentation, at half the size, and it’s a great fit for smallish/medium hands. It’s big enough to get all the fingers around the grip (something most Smith or Taurus concealment grips don’t do) yet it’s curved and highly concealable.
http://www.pachmayr.com/compac-pro-grips.php
or
http://www.pachmayr.com/compac-grips.php
I prefer the “old style” Compac grip that has a finger groove for the pinky. You can find them on ebay all day long, but I don’t think Pachmayr makes this model anymore. But this is what I carry nearly everyday on both a Smith Bodyguard and a Colt Cobra.
El Fishing Musician
16 September, 2010 at 1:52 am
Here’s the link to the old style Pachmayr Compac grip picture
http://www.pachmayr.com/includes/img/pachmayr/grips/lge/grip_compac.jpg
El Fishing Musician
16 September, 2010 at 1:55 am
@ Heather
Here’s a post I did last week on .44 caliber guns and how they seem to be preferred by the old bluesmen in both song and in real life.
http://elfishingmusician.blogspot.com/2010/09/bluesmans-caliber-4440.html
rob
16 September, 2010 at 2:42 am
el Fish — She’s got a 642 (.38 Special +P) not a 624 (.44 Special ), but that should be her next choice. I think the built in red dot laser in her 642 is a good feature too. I think the debate over speed or mass for stopping power is nonsense. Hand guns don’t produce enough energy to have one-hit stopping power. To put someone down with a single shot you need good placement or luck. Two shots in the groin are more likely to put a man down than two shots in the central mass. Two shots in the head is even better. The reason I don’t like a .22 is you can shoot someone in the head twice and still not kill them. The 9mm has more energy than a .38 Special +P but you can put a lot of 9mm holes in someone without them going down. For stopping power I would go for a shotgun.
rob
16 September, 2010 at 2:49 am
Heather –
Nice gun. Seriously though, who’s going to know if you slip it in your purse? In Sicily if a woman shoots someone in self-defence with an illegally carried gun, she’ll have no trouble trying to get a backdated permit off the police.
rob
16 September, 2010 at 2:56 am
@ el Fish —
I take your point, you can spend a lot on needless accessories but $33.98 is next to nothing to the cost of a revolver, and if it’s going to increase your shooting ability and not add to weight or bulk, it’s got to be worth buying.
El Fishing Musician
16 September, 2010 at 5:35 am
@ Heather and Rob,
What a dumbass I can be.
I totally misread the model of Heather’s gun. The model she has is one of the most popular handguns in America both in sales and usage by citizens. The laser just makes it a better defense weapon as long as it’s sighted in.
In Texas, in the summer heat and light clothing, it’s easy to conceal. Most of my friends have the Centennial model without the laser, but they’d love to have the laser. Two folks I write about on my blog, Billy Ray and Max are both big centennial fans.
They’ve been making the centennial design since the 1950′s, and have it pretty well down now. I don’t have a hammerless Smith, but I’d like one of those as well. I like the Model 40 all steel with the grip safety. Very retro but seems like a good choice for a purse. But really, any Centennial is a good purse or person carry gun. And an excellent home defense weapon. Just keep some HK speedloaders or Speed Strips handy with your extra ammo and a good flashlight for home defense and you’re good to go.
Good choice. Recommend you try the Pachmayr Compac grips and the Federal Low Recoil self defense ammo. In Texas, box of 20 = $20. You won’t believe the nice shooting with them unless you’ve already got a favorite.
Here’s a great post on the 642 and this is the exact gun Billy Ray has. I’ve shot it a bunch. It’s a great gun with a great trigger and very accurate for a snubbie. I like them but say again get a pair of Pachmayr Compac grips and you’ll never go back to those small S&W boot grips. Seriously. I got my last pair for a j frame used but in like new condition for $14 shipped on ebay from a former fed DEA agent.
Oh well, just consider that previous erroneous post as a longwinded diatribe on the .44 special. The Charter Arms Bulldog is an excellent concealment revolver in this cailiber.
El Fishing Musician
16 September, 2010 at 5:43 am
@ Rob
In New York they are pretty hardcore about law abiding citizens NOT carrying guns. Only the rich and famous and their bodyguards can get carry permits, like California. Their attitudes are very different from most of the rest of American, hell, even California is more tolerant of self defense than NY.
In Texas a jury would walk (find not guilty) a man or lady illegally carrying a firearm but shooting or killng a crook under righteous circumstances.
Do you know the story of Bernhard Goetz in NYC in 1982? Read this. In Texas, no DA or GJ would want to charge someone under these circumstances with a crime. His weapon, by the way, was a Model 36 Chief’s Special 3″ barrel Smith and Wesson blued with the standard tiny wood grips.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz
Ian Davies
16 September, 2010 at 5:44 am
@ Fish
Haven’t fired the PX4 subcompact yet but I was issued with the Beretta M9. Good weapon.
El Fishing Musician
16 September, 2010 at 5:45 am
And here’s a post from a while back about the S&W M340PD
http://elfishingmusician.blogspot.com/2010/02/smith-and-wesson-model-340pd-ultralight.html
El Fishing Musician
16 September, 2010 at 5:50 am
The PX4 sub has low and controllable recoil. It just feels so good in my hand, using the medium backstrap. My Glock 36 is great feeling, but I wish the Model 19 felt as good as the PX4 in my hand.
I’ve only shot the 92 a few times, but the triggers were oh so nice. Most of the Beretta’s I’ve shot were Italian made, but the triggers are great no matter where they are made. The 92 is another gun I’d like to have, and my son really wants one for Christmas really really bad.
One of my good friends who lives in the country on a small ranch keeps a M92 in a shoulder holster with a light and extra mags in the living room, alongside a Les Baer AR custom rifle and any number of shotguns. It’s his go to pistol for home defense. And he can still tote a long gun with his pistol in a slip on shoulder holster.
Ian Davies
16 September, 2010 at 6:01 am
The M92 is the most accurate handgun I’ve fired but it’s too damn big to carry around. The PX4s look sweet though.
Ian Davies
16 September, 2010 at 6:04 am
@ Heather
My Pops keeps a Centennial in the dash. Nice gun that won’t let you down.
rob
16 September, 2010 at 4:49 pm
@ el Fish
The Px4 Storm SD also has hardly any recoil, the entire Px4 series are awesome guns, you can’t do better. I like Glocks too but they’re not in the same league as the Beretta Px4 storms.
rob
16 September, 2010 at 5:08 pm
@ el Fish
The same thing happened in England — stupid ain’t it? When I had to use lethal force the investigating officer complimented me on my shooting. Two kills with four shots and no misses. One in the balls and one in the head for the first, and two in the head for the second. It was at close contact range but still… not bad shooting
rob
16 September, 2010 at 5:30 pm
@ el Fish
Because of the limits on the number of firearms we can own I doubt I’ll ever buy a revolver but if there wasn’t any limits I’d own a S&W and I’d have a Taurus Judge and Raging Bull.
El Fishing Musician
16 September, 2010 at 5:38 pm
@ Rob Glad you made it out alive. Yes the taurus judge is an awesome weapon and I’d like one of those too, please.
Maybe your laws will change one day. Have you ever thought of opening a small gun shop there where you could have your pick of playtoys?
One of my wife’s former bosses who lives in the UK has to keep his guns at the police station or the shooting club, I can’t recall which. If I recall correctly, he can keep one hunting shotgun at his home, but everything else has to be stored. He’s like a kid in the candy store when he comes to visit me, and I try to get friends with diverse collections to bring out guns he wants to shoot when he visits Texas.
rob
16 September, 2010 at 6:07 pm
@ el Fish
I have my own range and I have access to plenty of firearms. When I go to Serbia I can fire anything I like, but I want to have them at home. Amica’s dad has about 6 shotguns he lives in England. You can have as many shotguns as you like in England, as long as they can’t hold more than two cartridges and you need to have a secure place to lock them up. usually chained and padlocked in a cabinet secured to the wall. But if you want anything more than that you have to get a firearms license or keep it at the gun club, which is what a lot of people do.
heather
16 September, 2010 at 6:31 pm
Rob…
I would love to carry my Centennial but I just keep it for home defense. Our laws suck, huh?
heather
16 September, 2010 at 6:33 pm
Ian…
I love my Centennial and I bought American.
heather
16 September, 2010 at 6:46 pm
Fish…
I heard that about S&W too. I chose a revolver because I heard Semi autos can fail and I’m not an experienced shooter but I do 30 mins at the range every week. .38 +P are also cheaper than a lot of other ammunition.
El Fishing Musician
16 September, 2010 at 7:13 pm
@ Heather
You’re a stud if you are consistently practicing with .38 +P ammo. Back in my street policing days, that’s the ammo I used. 158 gr jhp.
rob
17 September, 2010 at 12:04 am
@ el Fish
Stefi is using .38 +P ammo with the Taurus. Have you ever fired the Berreta Stampede or Laramie, or any of the Uberti revolvers?
El Fishing Musician
17 September, 2010 at 2:06 am
Yes, I have fired a Stampede. Very good gun. It’s another one I’d like to have.
P from America
17 September, 2010 at 6:41 am
Stefi … nice choice. The good thing about revolvers is that they are highly reliable. Your compact Taurus will serve you well for defense.
cheers,
P
heather
19 September, 2010 at 4:54 pm
El Fishing…
Thanks, I train with what I’ll use at home. I also dry fire at home. You probably already know this but in NYC we’re not allowed to go to the range when we want. We have to agree a schedule with licensing.
EL FISHING MUSICIAN
20 September, 2010 at 4:12 am
@ Heather
I didn’t know that. How sad. Can you just hop over to a more lenient state for a range outing?
rob
21 September, 2010 at 7:50 pm
@ el Fish
I have to do that when I want to fire automatic weapons.
antireptilian
21 November, 2010 at 10:06 pm
38 is ok, but I prefer .45 stopping power. In South Africa, one of my friends used to own a Taurus .38, but we messed about with reload times and it took too long, even with a speed loader. We even shot an ex service .38 Rhodesian police issue, Yknow, the type where you have to flick your wrist to help the rounds along.
My Astra panther .45 ACP was about the same size as a std 9mm para, but a bit heavier. 9 rounds in all could come in handy, and a double action trigger for safety instead of a switch.
I guess the drawback was a slower fire recovery rate on the .45 as opposed to either a 9mm short, and a .38, but even if you miss with a .45, the guy dies from a heart attack
pietro amico
25 November, 2010 at 6:22 pm
I like Astra but I no think ,45 ACP better then 9mm, 9mm corto or .38 both for the defense.