When I was a 21-year old Studentessa in Rome, living away from home I bought myself some OC (Oleoresin Capsicum) spray because I thought it would be an effective incapacitant and would cause instant temporary blindness and involuntary coughing and sneezing, and put down any potential rapist or mugger. But the reality is very different. Soldiers and police are trained to overcome the effects of OC spray through sheer willpower. Here is a video of a female USMC recruit doing just that.
So as an incapacitant OC spray usually isn’t very effective, and it is also going to be very difficult to use in an attack. I can draw and shoot a firearm far more quickly and accurately than I can an OC cannister, which is too small and tricky to operate. And if that wasn’t bade enough I’ve got to get a direct hit in the face without catching any myself. So you might expect me to say that OC spray is a poor choice for personal defence but actually I think it’s a very good choice for a girl, as long as she understands it and has the right product.
FOX LAB MEAN GRREN
I sometimes carry Fox Lab MEAN GREEN, which is legal in Italy because it’s under 10% OC, and is probably the best OC spray on the market. It has a 6% concentration of 3 million SHU pepper resin. As Fox Lab point out a higher percentage of resin can delay reaction time, making the spray less effective. What makes an OC spray effective is the Scoville Heat Units (SHU), because this causes intense burning pain. OC isn’t going to involuntarily shutdown an attacker, it’s the burning that will stop him. So the hotter the better.
But what makes Mean Green the best product on the market for me as a girl is that it’s also a green dye that will cover his face.
Mean Green Face
If someone tries to rape, mug, carjack or attack you, the pain will deter them but the green dye will identify them if you go to the police. Also if they were able to resist the spray, the fact that they were green and easily identifiable would also be a deterrent. A man has got no chance of claiming consensual sex if he’s been sprayed with OC and painted green by the girl.
Obviously, if a girl carries OC there is a risk that she might get sprayed herself, if she tries to use it to close to her attacker. So be sensible use it as soon as you feel threatened. I also carry Fox Labs Sudecon wipes in my purse, just in case I have a blonde moment and accidental spray myself. 
They’re designed to remove the spray and decrease decontamination time but they won’t stop you looking like Shrek.
I don’t think OC spray is an alternative to a firearm and knife but its an effective non-lethal addition, and if you can’t carry a gun or knife, then it’s a must.
We practice in training something similar.
Unfortunately, many not understand the purpose of application for gas Balon.
You can not expect that the spray will give great an advantage in time. In the aerosol is unreliable.
But no more than an advantage in time you can get … It is to them and should be used.
Sergey —
I agree, it’s better as an offensive weapon.
Sorry, don’t quite get what you mean here?
I’ll post more later, but when I was a young officer 3 decades ago, before pepper spray, we got subjected to CS gas in a closed room. It certainly incapacitated me, but my prosecution career of over 20 years has shown a certain small percentage (20% estimated) with mental or serious drug issues that pepper spray does not incapacitate.
I keep one in the door handle of my car, in the indentation your hand goes into. Just in case I’m at that point when attacked, you can grab and spray easier. Other companies make it with the dye, the dye I’ve seen in the States is blue I think. Also, I like the pepper foam as well. Finally, if being attacked by more than one attacker, having a pepper “fogger” under the seat would be a viable option as well.
Did you see the news clip of the freak who sprayed wasp spray at the reporters following him and his friend to their cars somewhere in the US last week? Wasp spray is also a good alternative, and we keep cans near our exit doors for wasps and two legged critters.
@ El Fish
CS gas is illegal in Italy. Fox Labs is an American company and they make their products with a jet or fog. I use the fog too. I don’t want to aim. They also make a grenade.
We don’t keep OC at the door and if I was attacked in my car, I would be going for the firearm. I would use OC spray for those situations were lethal force isn’t justified but my Px4 subcompact is my primary weapon. I didn’t see that clip, I imagine wasp spray can blind? Oven cleaner can.
Stefi —
The danger with any non-lethal weapon is you draw it when you need to be using lethal force. If some wrong ‘un tries to break in I’m allowed to use lethal force so why wouldn’t I? You can’t get any more incapacitated than being dead.
@ Rob
That’s true but some situations require a non-lethal response. You can’t shoot beggars who pester you in the street.
El Fish —
I’v done that as well but CS gas in a sealed room is worse than being sprayed. I’ve fought on after being CS gassed. The person who gassed me was a lot more affected than I was. Pepper spray is nastier but it doesn’t stop an attacker dead and it doesn’t always work. Never been sprayed with it but my mate Danny used it a lot but now he just carries the dye. More for punishment after he’s given someone a slap. I sometimes smoke grenades, me and Danny have used those to good effect on a few occasions
Ottimo articolo. È importantissimo che la gente (e soprattutto le donne) siano a conoscenza di prodotti validi per l’autodifesa. Ignoravo l’esistenza di uno spray OC con il colorante, e ora lo consiglierò a chi me lo chiederà.
@ DoppioSoldo
Grazie, la colorante è un’idea intelligente. Non sarà duro trovare un stupratore con una faccia verde.
She’s tough, huh? It’s too funny when she fakes at the beginning.
Stefi…
See, this is why I don’t carry it. I heard it can blow in your face too.
Heather — It can but it’s less likely to than CS gas. I’ve been CS gassed in the army and on the street. It’s shit and goes everywhere.
If you carry pepper spray why do you need a gun?
Jen — With pepper spray you have to make the headshot, maybe in dim light when you’re struggling with someone. That ain’t easy. I’ve seen pepper spray work well and I’ve seen it fail to stop an attacker. Why take chances when you couple put a couple of 9mm rounds into the fuckers head?
How many people have you sprayed in the past year or so, and what were the results?
Chris —
Quite a lot, we spray everyone on the bodyguard course and expect them to be able to fight back. Some can, some can’t. Same on the street. We don’t use Mean Green because of the dye but Stefi’s used it and it worked for her. We use Fox Labs’ Five Point Three and Inert training sprays, and TW1000. Five Point Three is much more powerful and it will stop a lot of people just with pain. I think Mean Green is the same but I haven’t seen it used. In training the person with the spray often doesn’t get a direct hit on the attackers’ face first time. You’ve got to treat it like a firearm and train with it regularly to improve your chances. I wouldn’t count on using it against a dog though. We use water sprays with the dogs and you haven’t got a chance. The dog will have you every time. But if you want pepper spray, I would go with Mean Green or Five Point Three.
Chris
3 with Mean Green. It was very effective, and funny. The last time was a guy sexually harassing me on the beach. I sprayed him twice, he was screaming and walking around in circles, he tried washing in the sea but after the spray had worn off hid face was still green.
@ Chris
It’s more effective than tai chi but you’re got to be prepared to use it. Rob always says not to carry a weapon unless you’re prepared to use it. A gun ain’t deadly in the holster. If you ain’t going to use it when the time comes, you’re more at risk carrying it.
Jenny says:
24 August, 2010 at 11:17 pm
If you carry pepper spray why do you need a gun?
@Jenny
The Boy Scout motto is “Be Prepared”. I went through the entire scouting program, diverting to Sea Scouts in my early teens. Since then, I always try to be prepared.
A wise Texas lawman once said that you can have too many women but you can’t have to many guns or knives.
@ El Fish
Ha ha ha
@ Rob
That CS gas did a number on me. My mucus glands in my throat and nose were rapidly constricted, making breathing labored. I absolutely could not see due to the profuse tearing of my eyes for 5 minutes and it was marginal sight after that for another 10 minutes. On top of that, I got a good lungful as our instructor came around pushing on our guts, and was wheezy as hell in addition to the nasal/oral breathing capability. I was absolutely debilitated for at least 5 minutes.
I didn’t carry it on my belt when I was an officer. I much preferred the 24 inch straight baton (mine, still have it, made by Bianchi of heavy duty aluminum). I took much instruction in “the stick” and preferred it to chemicals. I kept it in the car, and when the wind was gusting in different directions it stayed in the car. THose were different times in American law enforcement. The early 80′s were tame compared to the era of what I’ll call “effective law enforcement” in the 50′s through the 70′s, but the 80′s were wild compared to nowadays.
El Fish –
I remember the CS gas in the chamber being pretty awful and all but in the open air it’s not’s that bad, that’s what of the benefits of pepper spray it burns as bad whether you’re inside or outside. It was probably a higher dosage in the 50s through to the 70s, you’ve seen the video of Carter crying meeting the Shah of Iran in the 70s? That must have been some strong to reach them. I’ve used pepper spray in bodyguard training but I don’t carry it. I do like smoke bombs though. Good for clearing out a room not much defensive value but fun. I used them for a fire drill at home, Amica and Stefi weren’t happy. I’ve banned from using them at home.
Rob…
Okay, what now? You let smoke bombs off in the house. It’s good you do a fire drill but geez Rob let smoke bombs off in the house is pretty crazy. Amica and Stefi were mad at you, huh?
@ heather
I was in the shower at the time!!!
@ Rob “If some wrong ‘un tries to break in I’m allowed to use lethal force so why wouldn’t I? You can’t get any more incapacitated than being dead.”
You should go live in Texas, you would feel right at home.
Rob. You use water sprays on your precious dogs but you use the real spray on people? LOL Why don’t you use the real spray to train your dogs?
Stefi…
OMG I would have been so pissed. See I understand the fire drill but why the smoke bombs?
Stefi…
You don’t take any crap off guys, huh? Are you allowed to spray a guy for sexual harassment because I would love to that.
@ Stefi
I thought Catholics were supposed to give to charity. Couldn’t you give the beggars some money instead of spraying them with OC? It’s not like you’re poor now is it?
@ Jen
Gypos ain’t a deserving charity. If they come up and start hassling you, you got the right to OC or pull a knife on them. They steal and rape as well as beg.
@ Fishy “The early 80′s were tame compared to the era of what I’ll call “effective law enforcement” in the 50′s through the 70′s, but the 80′s were wild compared to nowadays.”
Like the 1968 Chicago riots.
@ Heather
In a real fire they’re is smoke. Smoke bombs make the drill more real. Sounds like a good idea to me.
Ian —
That’s what I said but they wouldn’t have it.
@Stefi
“That’s true but some situations require a non-lethal response”
I agree, I carry Mace.
@Jenny
Do you give money to every bum in the street?
@ Ian
She takes them home.
@ Ian. No but I don’t OC them either.
@ Amica. Why can’t you use your gun, knife, stick, spray, wild dog etc. to frighten off an attacker? You don’t have to be a psycho and use weapons on them.
Jen — if someone points a gun at me and starts giving it a load of verbal, I know they don’t want to shoot me. That’s not a good position for them to be in because if the roles were reversed, I wouldn’t hesitate and I would have shot them.
We have lots of gypsies over here, including the black irish. Something for nothing.
@Rob, I can see why Amica and Stefi don’t think it was funny. I had a “crazy” (in a good kind of way most of the time) Aussie roommate that set off a “smoke pot” that was in a gallon paint can just outside of our house (with open windows and doors because it was a cool day) back when we were in college. Got nasty smoke everywhere. We put peanut butter in his bed as revenge, but the roomie was so drunk when he hit the sack he didn’t notice it until the next day.
El Fish — It wasn’t supposed to be funny, it was meant to be a realistic fire drill, but they weren’t happy. The smoke didn’t take that long to clear but I won’t be doing it again.
There are different accounts about the effectiveness of pepper spray.
I think that it’s probably pretty effective for close-distance engagements – you just have to be careful about wind direction and where you spray. I’ve heard that the US police don’t like pepper spray for arrests – because they have found that they always get some of the spray on themselves. It’s hard to limit the weapon to just your intended target. One good advantage of the sprays is that they are also useful against animals (such as street dogs).
However … the opposite side of the story comes from a recent book written by an experienced corrections officer who worked in high-security US prisons. His feedback is that he has known some violent inmates who are hardly affected by the spray at all. They just keep on coming!! So if you are counting on these guys going down just because you gave them a blast with a little pepper spray … then you are dreaming. That’s consistent with the video that Stefi showed, where the USMC is training their people to resist the stuff through sheer willpower.
So – the bottom line is that the spray is a useful defensive tool. But don’t count on it as your only form of defense.
cheers,
P
P —
Try shooting a large dog bearing down on you. It’s not so easy. Pepper spraying it is even harder because a gun is faster to draw, fire and shoot on target. Added to that a bullet will actually stop a dog, but pepper spray is a risk because it takes time to take effect and might not stop the dog the anyway.
I’ve seen more than one bad guy unaffected by either CS gas or Pepper spray. I’ve also watched maniacs show no noticeable effect at all with being tazered.
That’s why I like knives and guns.
@ el Fish
My thoughts exactly. Neither CS gas or pepper spray have any stopping power, so it comes down to physics: if the reaction time to the effects of the incapacitant are longer than the length of time it takes the attacker to complete the attack… you might as well be spiting at him. It ain’t going to do you much good if he’s on he’s coughing his guts up, rubbing his eyes and screaming like a girl, when you’re on you’re way to the way to the morgue.
Rob … my comment about usefulness of the spray against dogs was intended more for the situation where there is a street mutt that is lurking about. However, for an attack by a fast-moving dog I would think that pepper spray would be pretty useless. We’re in complete agreement about that. A running dog would simply be moving too fast, and he would be on you before the spray had any chance to take effect.
In fact … that’s really the fundamental problem with pepper spray. It tends to work against targets that only pose mild threats. It won’t stop animals or people who are coming at you very quickly, and it’s not much good against psycopaths and violent criminals who can disregard their senses.
cheers,
P
Hey Stefi … this is a totally different subject. But maybe you’ll include it on a future post.
Do the old men in Sicily carry a traditional knife that is a bit smaller than a regular dagger … like a sleeve dagger or a belt dagger? It’s not unusual for old men in some parts of the world (where knives are part of the traditional culture) to have their own weapon that they continue carry.
And along the same lines … do the women of Sicily have a slender dagger that they keep for personal defense?
If you have any pictures of these types of Sicilian knives, I think it would make a very interesting post on your blog. Have a great day!
cheers,
P
Most Sicilian men carry knives but usually modern folding knives. There are several traditional Sicilian knives but the one usually referred to as the Sicilianu is the cuteddu ammanicatu, which is folding knife and featured in one of Rob’s earlier posts, but what you’re talking about sounds like a chastity knife. I wouldn’t have thought many Sicilian men carry those. I carry a Frank Beltrame B-Naked, which is a folding chastity dagger.
Stefi … thanks. Sounds like the preference in Sicily is for folding knives. It makes perfectly good sense – they are very practical. BTW you are the expert on Sicilian men – I don’t know the traditional customs on your island at all. Maybe one day if i am lucky I will get a chance to visit Siciliy.
cheers,
P
Stefi … I took a look at the cuteddu ammanicatu – which is an interesting design. It definitely looks “Sicilian” to me. We don’t see many knives like that in the USA. It’s quite consistent with the fighting style you have described on your blog … and it would be quite lethal in the hands of a trained assassin.
I mentioned small daggers because they have an advantage of stealth and speed for drawing the weapon. A small, slender dagger is more easily concealed in personal clothing. Since it is a fixed blade – it is immediately ready to go when drawn. There is no need to open it with a special motion, and there is no “click” sound that often accompanies the opening of a folding knife. In other times around the world these types of knives certainly have been used by women for defense, or as you like to say – as “chastity daggers”. I know that women during some older centuries in Japan carried a very sharp knife in their robes. Quite possibly women in some European countries also adopted this tactic – perhaps in medieval times.
For older men in Sicily, I would guess that the cuteddu ammanicatu is too long. They no longer need to be involved in duels or serious fighting. So they are more likely to rely upon a shorter blade – perhaps a folding stiletto. Old men rely on cunning, so it’s worthwhile to observe their strategies.
Best wishes with your training.
cheers,
Pete
@ P
It doesn’t surprise me you don’t see them in America because there aren’t many traditional knives being made any more.
@ P
Small daggers weren’t popular in medieval times. The word stiletto it’s a diminutive of stilo. Knives have got smaller because we don’t openly carry them any more.The blade on a cuteddu ammanicatu is usually about 15 -19cm, whereas Sicilian folding knives used to be a lot longer, when they were openly carried. The small dagger came into fashion in the Baroque period as a girl’s knife, and in then probably in the C19th as a concealed weapon. The push dagger were popular in the Southern states during the American Civil war. A small dagger can be marginally faster to draw than an old folding knife like a cuteddu ammanicatu — depending where you where it of course — but a modern folding knife can deployed on the draw. I sometimes carry a Maserin Energy Line, I can’t draw that as fast as I can draw and open my Fox Delta Spec Ops Col Moschin.
Any man with honour will fight to defend it, doesn’t matter how old he is.
@ P –
” It tends to work against targets that only pose mild threats. It won’t stop animals or people who are coming at you very quickly, and it’s not much good against psycopaths and violent criminals who can disregard their senses.”
Yep, or against girl marines or anyone trained to overcome the effects. Same with a TASER. I’d rather rely on gun, knife, stick or dog… or Amica’s breath — she’s been eating garlic.
@ Rob
Hey
Amica — You’re breath’s all nice and minty now.
Rob…
Everybody’s breath smells after eating garlic. Eat some yourself then you won’t notice it. Where’s Stefi?
@ Heather
That’s what I said.
Heather — I know, I’m only teasing her. She knows how much I love her.
I’m not going to give Amica a hard time if she eats garlic … I like it myself. And it’s very good for your health. So Amica may live longer than all the rest of us!
Rob and Stefi – here’s an example of a blade maker who still offers small daggers. Apparently this manufacturer is in Europe, and the sleeve daggers come from weapons used by spies in WW2.
http://www.macdonaldarms.com/armoury/OSS.php
Rob … thanks for the clarification about when women’s daggers became popular (Baroque). Also the comment about “stilletto”. Funny – everyone over here knows what a stiletto is, but no-one has the foggiest idea that it derives from “stilo”. I’ll have to go look it up myself.
I read both your remarks about “fighting for honor” and “chastity daggers” with some mild amusement. I understand that “horo” may be very important to men in Siciliy (not to mention former paratroopers!), but we just don’t see those concepts over here in the USA very much. People might fight to protect their lives or their families, and perhaps to defend their homes or valuable property. But if someone attacks your honor verbally, then they are not likely to be taken seriously – or perhaps they will face a lawsuit. It’s unlikely that any blood will be drawn.
Likewise … “chastity” seems to be a dead ideal these days. There mgiht be some things that would motivate American women to use a dagger, but I’m not sure that chastity would be in their top 5 answers. I’m not even sure that many American teenagers could even give you a defintion for what “chastity” even means these days – and most would be astonished if you suggested it was worth pursuing. Ohhhhh well
cheers,
P
@ P
Stilo is the Italian word for a large tapered needle point blade. Chastity daggers is the English term in Sicily they were called cuteddu sticchiu which literally means cunt knife, which is sometimes misinterpreted to mean some form of chastity knife but sticchiu is also the Sicilian phrase for a sexy girl. Girls used to carry them to protect themselves from rape.
In America, wouldn’t a guy defend his sister’s honour if someone insulted her?
@ P –
Those SOE and OSS knives weren’t used much, if at all. Their issue knife was the Fairbairn-Sykes commando knife but they had some pretty cool stuff invented though. Not much of it worked mind, but still… Q section in the James Bond films is based on some of their stuff. The boot dagger and push dagger were still used widely throughout the Vietnam war. But the small push dagger dates back to before the American Civil war.
P — In Sicily, even driving is a matter of honour. If I driving one way down a narrow road and another geezer is driving the other way, I’m not backing down: I’d shoot him before I’d reverse.
Last comment … I made a typo on the 2′nd sentence of the 2′nd paragraph. It should have said … I understand that “honor” may be very important to men in Siciliy …”
cheers,
P
@ P
Honour is important to Sicilian women too. Insults to a Sicilian woman’s honour are often the cause of fights.
Stefi … it’s possible that a brother would defend his sister in the USA – if her reputation was being insulted. That is true. And in some parts of the USA where families are still very close-knit, it is possible to see feuds over insults about honor. But more and more, as families are dispersed because of travel, the old traditional behavior is going away. Perhaps Sicily retains some of its old character and identity because people do choose to stay on the island – so traditions are passed down.
Rob – we do have instances of “road rage” in America. But it usually comes about because drivers are extremely frustrated by long delays on the freeways. So their anger boils over. I’m not sure that too many drivers would shoot each other because of a confrontation on a one-way street. Americans would be surprised by that kind of behavior – it would raise eyebrows.
It would be very interesting for both of you – to spend more time explaining how the concept of “honor” works in Sicilian society today. As you can tell from my feedback – the point of view is generally quite different here in America. We do have people in the USA that still care about honor. Soldiers who have served in the military – especially those from regiments with a proud tradition – do still care about honor. And I’m sure that some people who retain their customs from the homelands in other countries, or people who belong to close-knit groups & families, still care about honor.
But for many Americans the concept of “honor” has been replaced by other things. In fact – you can see this in one current example. How is it that the entire world financial system has been ruined by the actions of the banks on Wall Street? It is purely because the banks on have embraced greed, and given up any notion of honor. So their actions wind up being disgraceful – and everyone can see it.
I find the sleeve daggers interesting because they are a weapon of stealth. But I generally do agree with you – that a good folding knife will accomplish pretty much the same thing, and with skill it can be flipped open very quickly when it is deployed. I will try to look at some pictures of the old “stilo” daggers when I get time.
cheers,
P
P —
Backup daggers have their place. If you’re in the military you don’t have to worry about concealed carry, wearing a backup dagger on your loadout ain’t a bad idea.
Pepper spray is very effective and easy to use non-lethal weapon for everybody. I got two for my wife and my daughter and they have been carrying it with them always. It makes me feel at ease. And I am so grateful that until now they were not able to use it yet. Their safety is something I cannot assure all the time so it is better to have something to protect them.