Violence and Morality
Martin Luther King Jr called violence immoral, which just goes to prove what a lying hypocritical old fraud he was. He paid taxes to the American state that uses violence to enforce it’s laws, protect its citizens and pursue wars. Pacifism for all it’s claim to a higher moral principle is self-indulgent hypocrisy and cowardice. Anyone who tells you they don’t believe in violence is a liar because if they really believed violence was immoral, they would believe that resisting rape or punishing the rapist is immoral. If you don’t believe in violence, you don’t believe in jail.
We all believe in violence to some degree, even pacifists — Martin Luther King Jr was a woman beater, Gandhi was a warmonger, and the Dalai Lama is sadistic, terrorist and mass-murderer — every civilisation since the dawn of man has been founded on violence and the human capacity for violence has stopped us going the way of the dodos. So why the bullshit pretence that violence is immoral or undesirable?
Over the years, I’ve killed, maimed and wounded, and I’ve made a pretty decent crust doing it. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t go around hurting people for the fun of it, but if someone tries to hurt me or mine, what else am I’m going to do?
There is nothing immoral in inflicting violence on those who would inflict violence on you. And anyone who tells you violence solves nothing doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Violence solves quite a lot.
I would say that violence settles a lot but solves little.
“Every civilisation since the dawn of man has been founded on violence and the human capacity for violence has stopped us going the way of the dodos. So why the bullshit pretence that violence is immoral or undesirable?”
While i agree that all power ultimately rests on the threat of violent force, and i agree about your comments that non-volience and inaction can be as immorral as violent action, i dont agree that due to this, the desire for a non-violent society is pretence or bullshit. I realise you have virtualy said this yourself later when you talked about interventionist and non involvement in colonial wars (though how you aviod that as a para i dont understand) … but it isnt really that clear. The anarchist ideas regarding imprisonment, for me, seem sensible, but I do not hold that all prisoners, would be reformed by a humane, caring approach. I beleive that there are some horrible evil bastards about and they can only be dealt with by being removed. (in short, i think that the assumtion that we are all pretty normal and roughly sane is probably isguided and there may well be very broad variations in peoples psychology … some of which, just dont play well with others!) So… i am, like others, by no means a pacifist, as you have so rightly pointed out. However….. I do not advocat violence. I dont like it, i dont think it is desirable and i do think that we, (the human race) should strive for non-violence. If we do not, whats to strive for? What do we defend out loved ones and homes from?… surely violent domination…. so surely an end to such behaviour is desirable. And i do believe that violence breads violence, i think this is pretty easy to illustrate in historical, geopolitical and psycho-social terms. So again, a reduction in violence is desirable. An illimination of violence, while fanciful, is surely desireable since then all of our energies would be put toward creation, and non towards destruction…. the more energy is put toward creation, the more we develop … this is presumably good. Furthermore, an anarhcist society based on co-operation surely works better if it is non-violent. I mean, the externalisation of the conrol of peoples beahviour to the state via the threat of violent recrimination is exactly the opposite of what would make an anarchist society work really well… i.e. the internalising of a cooperative morality for the good of society. …. ok…. i am talking about ideals…. but the logic seems pretty straighforward. Arguing the obvious ‘there will always be someone who tries to become dominant via the threat of violence’ does not mean that the the desire for non violence is pretence, or wrong or bullshit, even if it has been hypocritically stated by prominant pacifists. I think you actually would agree with this Rob? no?
As an aside, like i said before, i am no pacifist. I am not proud of any violent action i have ever made in self defence…… actually, thats a lie….. secretly, i have been proud of violently overcoming threats to myself and friends….. but its a part of myself that i dont like much. There are much higher aspirations to strive for, I guess if i truly followed Bushido, i would want to be a desent guy and defend myself and others freedom to strive for these higher things without having to be sidetracked by worrying about violence. But in doing so, I would be guided by a sence of service and humility that precluded egotism and self interest from that use of power. I guess thats the nub of the issue. Its not the action that makes a thing right or wrong, but the purpose of the action … i think Ali said that
and its pretty obvious……. but the action can be self serving in so so many ways.
That might be an intersting line of discussion…. Bushido in an anarchist society.
You missed the fact that Gandhi was also a wife beater.
I think your argument against pacifists is demonstrated very well in the latest Rambo movie.
I don’t know if you’ve seen it or not (obviously), but there’s a doctor who absolutely abhors violence until it came down to the actual deed, and then he was the most violent of all.
You could see it in his face as he beat the guy.
So yeah, you’re right, there’s hypocrits everywhere.
If they were armed with featherdusters, then Jean Charles de Menezes would still be alive.
@ Buffoon
If it didn’t the police and military would be armed with featherdusters.
ROTFLMBO
You don’t like pacifists, who knew?
Steph…
They weren’t even killed… wtf? Oh they would have been called in New York but if you have witnesses and it was self-defense that would be okay I guess. I bet that guy won’t be grabbing your ass again, huh?
Yes it does indeed solve quite a lot…
If it’s a misattribution, I wonder who really said it…
PS: An example of how violence is justified. I just received news that Perez Hilton was punched in the face over the weekend. I applaud that decision.
http://www.newsday.com/entertainment/news/celebrity/ny-etperez0622,0,4278673.story
Steph:
I agree with you about the Dalai Lama. I remember when I visited China, I was at a museum which dealt with Chinese History. I saw the various torture machines used by the Dalai Lama before the reunification of Tibet with the People’s Republic of China.
Who could not forget that in the period of the Dalai Lama, people in Tibet were property of the Dalai Lama clique. When a person could not pay off his or her debts, the family was sold to the Dalai Lama clique. There was sadness and misery all around before the reunification of Tibet with China was consolidated in 1959.
Since Martin Luther King Jr is tabboo, I will comment about paying taxes to the American State. Unless there is a change in government towards Libertarianism or even a Revolution [the latter is inevitable], the American State or Empire requires that all citizens of the US Empire pay taxes.
The US Empire has a secret police system called the IRS which collects taxes and destroys people who do not pay them. Even criticism of the IRS is forbidden unless the person wants to sacrifice his or her own future. There was a case of the IRS assaulting a family in Alaska and losing their possesions. This is the so called democracy that the US Elite and US Empire want to force upon the people of the world.
Aside from the taxes, you were right about King and Gandhi.
Is this better?
@ heather
No, they weren’t even called, and if they had have been it would have been no problem there were plenty of witnesses. In Italy the duty is on the criminal to surrender. So if they’re holding a broken bottle, you can stab them. But I think that would probably be a problem in New York?
Rob…
Did you get in any trouble with the cops?