The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams discussing the Shariah suggested that a certain amount of legal pluralism was unavoidable if we want a legal frame that serves the “common good”; one which doesn’t leave people of conscience ”with the stark alternatives of cultural loyalty or state loyalty”. (Full text)
He didn’t suggest that the introduction of some elements of Shariah law in to the existing law is inevitable, he said it was, if the law was to serve to common good. He was critical of the growth of a fascism in the UK:
“[I]t is undeniable that there is pressure from some quarters to insist that conscientious disagreement should always be overruled by a monopolistic understanding of jurisdiction.”
“[I]t is not enough to say that citizenship as an abstract form of equal access and equal accountability is either the basis or the entirety of social identity and personal motivation. Where this has been enforced, it has proved a weak vehicle for the life of a society and has often brought violent injustice in its wake (think of the various attempts to reduce citizenship to rational equality in the France of the 1790′s or the China of the 1970′s).”
“I labour the point because what at first seems to be a somewhat narrow point about how Islamic law and Islamic identity should or might be regarded in our legal system in fact opens up a very wide range of current issues, and requires some general thinking about the character of law.”
“It would be a pity if the immense advances in the recognition of human rights led, because of a misconception about legal universality, to a situation where a person was defined primarily as the possessor of a set of abstract liberties and the law’s function was accordingly seen as nothing but the securing of those liberties irrespective of the custom and conscience of those groups which concretely compose a plural modern society.”
Culture Secretary Andy Burnham, gave a mind numbingly stupid response:
“You cannot run two systems of law alongside each other. That would, in my view, be a recipe for chaos, social chaos.”
The UK already has multiple systems of law running alongside each other - there is English law, Scott laws, European law, International law, Maritime law; three separate legal jurisdictions in the UK alone; civil law, criminal law, cannon law and constitutional law; and in English criminal law, there is common law and law of statute.
What Dr Williams is suggesting makes sense and is long over due. We already have employment tribunal and immigration tribunals, that sit outside the normal legal framework as courts of first instance, so why not Shariah courts? Family courts are already supposed to take into account cultural and religious issues in divorce and child residence hearings, introducing Shariah courts would be a common sense approach to an existing legal principle.
The first thing to remember here is Shariah courts already exist, their decisions are at present not legally binding, but they are still resolving Muslim marital disputes. Their decisions usually benefit women because Muslim men don’t need to go to Shariah court to obtain a divorce, Muslim women do, especially if they want to get their dowry. Making their rullings legally enforceable is a positive step.
Another major benefit of bringing Shariah courts under English civil law is it puts an end to the practice of dubious local Imams from dispensing dodgy legal rullings. Allowing a more flexible approach in civil law won’t hurt. He wasn’t suggesting that we all ought to be subject to it or that it should guide criminal law. This will only effect couples who have entered into a Muslim marriage.
Hi Steph,
There should be some form of sharia control through the UK courts so that the activities can be monitored and controlled.
It’s typical of the press to turn this into some sort of weird introduction of stoning and flogging, rather than the sensible and open discussion an intelligent man has tried to instigate.
Don’t know if you have seen it, but the main poll in todays Mail online is a bizarre question about who is more of a threat to the UK: Abu Hamza (convicted terrorist and all round scum), or Dr Rowan (beardy Welsh bloke). Nearly 80% of hate readers seem to think the latter.
I admire him for being a liberal but I’m not sure this is a good idea. I know what you’re saying about it only applying to Muslims but is shariah law compatible with democracy?
He’s probably right but what is it with the Christian left? The Archbishop of Canterbury is an Anglican (allegedly), why is he so bloody enamoured with Islam?
If the Arabs ever did manage to muster up an army big enough to conquer Europe and impose Sharia law on us, they’d find the Archbishop of Canterbury and his lefty friends had already beaten them to it.
Contrary to popular belief, sharia is compatible with democracy.
Kevinboatang – Bin Laden only wants to establish a Khalifate as far as Spain, Rowan Williams wants to include the whole of Europe.
Danial – democracy be buggered, this is a Christian country.
@ Danial
Sorry, if it sounded like I was crticizing shriah law. Democracy is probably the wrong word. I mean western human rights are incompatible with Islamic law.
Christian country, eh? Then how come this supposed Christian country has some of the lowest church attendance rates in the Western world.
If the English feel strongly about Christianity, then they’d put their money where their money and start attending church services on a regular basis.
But alas, Europeans only use the Christian moniker as a means of identity, nothing more.
I wonder if you’re too ashamed of your pre-Christian pagan roots.
Heather, you’re basing shariah law based on Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan under the Taliban. I’m sorry but neither applies in each case. Saudi Islamic law is based on Khaleeji Arabian culture whereas the Taliban was based on village Pashtun culture if anything.
@ Simon
He converted, didn’t you know? *rolls eyes* he’s make a sensible point about fascism and freedom of conscience, if he was enamoured with Islam, he’d have said something about Bishop Nazir-Ali.
Or Henry II, as George Carty pointed out.
@ Heather
UK and European courts often find aspects on English law incompatible with human rights law, the Blair government barely passed a laws that wasn’t. But marriage is a contract both parties sign that contract and ought to be bound by its terms, human rights don’t come into it, and I think there is a good case to be made that shariah law has over the centuries bee a damn sight more humane that Christian law.
@ Danial
I agree, and we’re only talking about introducing a small part of Shariah law, and as aside, I don’t want any of my taxes to go towards abortion. This is part of what he was talking about, respect for freedom of conscience. This is the best speech I’ve ever read of his, it reminds me of te speech an Anglican priest made about bombing civillians during WW2. It’s courageous and decent.
Danial
For some people Christianity is nothing more than an something to hide behind when they’re bashing Islam. The BNP bang on about Christianity then masturbate to Nazi propaganda.
Reminds me of Maronites and their Kataeb/Phalange ideology that they jerk off to.
@ Kevin
I agree with all of that, although I would go beyond saying it was an intelligent man trying to instigate a debate, I’ve read the whole speech and it really was impressive. Before I’ve wondered his left wing credentials, but this is a very courageous stance in defence of freedom of conscience and the limits of the authority of the State.
So Mail readers think that a religious extremist psychopath who blew his hands off making bombs is less of a treat to the UK than a placid religious moderate. Well that doesn’t surprise me, Mail Readers have more in common with Abu Hamza, he’s on their wave length.
@ Simon
Said like a true blue Tory mate. Perhaps Boris Johnson could use that as a campaign slogan.
Danial – “I wonder if you’re too ashamed of your pre-Christian pagan roots.”
I suppose our esteemed Archbishop probably wants to let Welsh druids hold court at Stone Henge. He’s probably one himself. Where does it end? Do we let Hindus and Sikhs have their courts too?
There’s nothing about Shariah law in the BVC, so who is going to represent Muslims in these Shariah courts, or are suggesting they should go unrepresented?
@ Simon
Yes.
They would be represented by those qualified to do so if the Shariah courts were recognised in English law. Although not having to pay for parasitical divorce lawyers might not be such a bad idea.
@ Rob
lol
Eton Rifles!!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7233040.stm
“Jewish courts are in daily use in Britain, and have been for centuries…
JEWISH COURTS
The Beth Din hears only civil disputes
The court can only act if both sides agree
Both parties to the dispute must be Jewish
“If one side does not accept the authority of the Beth Din, concerning divorce or any dispute, we cannot act”, David Frei clarifies.
I spend few hours today on various forums /news paper HYS. I was shocked to see how so many people had no issue with Jewish court (which I welcome) but did not want to allow Muslim similar court? Most common response was “if you don’t like it then go to Saudi/Pakistan” I was forced to think what was my father fighting for in WWII?? So that one day people in UK say to his children to leave their native home because people don’t approve their religion!! Sad.
Oh poor gorgeous misguided Steph.
One simple question shoulf debunk any of this appeasement mentality that is finding its way into our legal system as well.
If you were a non muslim in Saudi Arabia or Iran, and asked for the same consdieration, do you think you would get it?
The answer is obvious… think about it before your so ready to please these “people”
my new blog here, your always welcome…
http://www.dequalss.com/wp/
sorry for the spelling
Leghumping is for losers.
Sorry I left your leg out Danial… don’t be so damn “feminist”
can you answer my question?
@ Daniel
I thought Saudi culture was mainly Najdi in origin…
The right wing journalist, Andrew Gimson, writes a great piece on this in the Torygraph
@ TRM
In Iran, Jews and Christians do. Ever wondered why Israeli government can’t entice the 25,000-30,000 Jews living in Iran to resettle in Palestine for love or money, and why Christian Armenia is pro Iran? And the Saudi royal family are vile despots. But the legal system in Islamic countries shouldn’t effect the legal system in the UK, we should do what is right for us, and part of that is being more flexible on family law.
The present system of family law is unfair, doesn’t work and is contributing in a big way to the social problems of the UK. The current system allows a wife, who plays the whore, to walk away with her husbands house, half his earning and his kids when he divorces her – it makes no distinction between a middle aged man, who is slipping his dick into a 16 year old girl and one who forgets to put down the toilet seat and can’t get it up three times a night!
I’m sure Beth Din, Shairah and Canon law courts would do a much better job!!!
btw I’m no feminist.
@ George
What’s your take on this?
@ Imran
The anger has nothing to do with the issue, it is Islamophobia. The media and the government has been vilifying Muslims since the start of the Palestinian intifada, they whipped up Islamophobic frenzy after 911 to take us into two disastrous wars. Before 1999 there was nowhere near this level of animosity towards Islam or Muslims.
@ Steph
I don’t see much of a problem. Unfortunately, when most Westerners hear the word “Shari’ah” they think only of the hudud laws — chopping off the hands of thieves, or stoning adulterers.
@ George
I agree. Personally I’d would rather the State wasn’t involved in a marriage and divorce at all but if it is, then it is going to have to accommodate the Shariah to some degree. That’s all that’s get mentioned but the statement as a whole was a very good one, I thought, on the freedom of conscience in a pluralist society.
Taking the State out of the marriage business can have its drawbacks though. There are no civil marriages in Israel (as its family law is based on the Ottoman millet system), so mixed-faith Israeli couples have to go to Cyprus to get married.
I hate people describing Britain as a “Christian” country. The concept is an oxymoron, because faith is personal to the believer and not based on the country you were born in.
Like you said in an earlier comment, Christianity is wheeled out to bash other faiths (like Islam). I’m really not sure if Jesus would have wanted to be used like that!
That’s pretty interesting because Iran supported Armenia in the Nagorno-Karabakh war by sending military aid to the country and Iran is also one of their main trading partners due to being blocked by Turkey to the west.
I think the Iran-Armenia friendship is based on ethno-linguistic ties — they’re both Indo-Aryan nations in a largely Turkic neighbourhood…
It seems a little bizarre for a bloke with a grey beard 2nd in command in the anglican church making such a statement.
I don’t think he’s a silly man, unless he’s some toffy nosed twit who escaped my idiot radar.
No, I think he said ths for good reason to stimulate debate. I think he knew too that it would stir up a lot of anti muslim stuff and for that reason alone I think its pretty sucky.
Have I read or heard his full speech? No, but ive read the headlines and hear the onslaught against him and what he said.
Maybe he’s just feckin naive, but i doubt it. Call me a cynic, but in some ways I’d say that he knew in his heart of hearts that a reaction would be anything but muslim embracing and if anything simply more of a focus on all of that head chopping off, stoning and similar barbarous practices often trumpeted in our western media.
So why did he say it? Is this just another play in the long running charade of Christianity versus Isalm? Or ….blah, nah- the church aint silly, they are like a Corp. Nothing gets said without being debated internally first.
oops in my comment just gone, blog = bloke
@ Stephi
I didn’t think you were a feminist I was addressing Danial’s jab at me for addressing you respectfully as gorgeous…
I wonder how you come to your suggestion that Iran treats Jews and Christians so well unless as another poster here said it has something to do with a common language and culture…
I can tell you with no uncertainty from personal experience that a fraternity I belong to that is non denominational was raided, the members held and all property seized and never returned, to include a holy bible, torah and quran… This happened in Saudi land… so there tolerance and treatment of others percieved to be outside islam is questionable based on that experience..
I still must go forwardf with the thought that were there an influx of non muslims to move into the area and then demand some sort of special staus in their sharia legal system I am convicned it would not be catered to as it is now in the UK… hell America too!
And for the record regarding your observation of the 30,000 Jews not wanting to leave Iran to settle in Palestine… it’s a crap hole,,, who the heck wants to live there???
Steph:
After reading your article about Rowan, I think Rowan was right and the US and UK Governments are wrong. Personally, [after seeing the increasingly crime rate in America and the mediocre candidates] I would be in favour of Shariah in the United States. As a US Citizen by birth, I think Shariah would be a factor for stability in America. Shariah could even resolve the farce called the Primary Elections and Electoral College with their ever present corruption.
As for Christian Armenia being an ally of the Islamic Republic of Iran, ethnicity and the fact that Iran helped Armenia is one factor. But another factor [maybe you could educate me on this] is that Iran wants peace. Press TV announced that Visa requirements between Iran and Azerbiajian would be dropped. This announcement from Press TV is a far cry from the intolerance that is reigning in the USA. I am a Catholic Christian who has found compatibility with the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Roberto
That wasn’t my view. In fact as I haven’t read the original article I don’t know either way. I’m a bit suspicious that no non-Muslim source seems to be agreement…
@ George
I disagree, there is no need for the State to be involved in marriage or divorce, if a man and woman are cohabiting the State doesn’t sanction or dissolve that relationship. The only issue is ownership of property, which most unmarried couples can resolve without the involvement of the courts, and child residence, which is separate from divorce proceedings anyway.
@ Ros
I agree. I’m sure people who say that wouldn’t want to live under a Cromwellian regime, like you say it’s just a stick to beat others with or an excuse to resist change.
@ Danial
I know someone who will know, so I’ll email him and get back to you on Iranian-Armenian relations.
rob you’re a cynic!
I’ve provided a link to the entire speech, have a quick glance over it, it’s not an easy speech to read but taken as a whole it making a general point about faith, pluralism, tolerance and freedom of conscience. I don’t think he meant to ignite this debate in this way at all, sadly I think he’ll be forced to retire soon and a nasty bigoted extremist will become Archbishop of Canterbury.
@ TRM
I know, I was just saying I don’t mind being called “poor gorgeous misguided Steph” – as back handed compliments go – I like it.
I agree that Saudi Arabia is a terrible place for Christians but is for Muslims too. It’s a despotic tyranny (is that tautologous?) but we don’t want to be using the Saudi regime as a bench mark of religious tolerance.
They don’t want to move to Europe or America either.
@ Roberto
I wouldn’t wnat to see the Shariah adopted wholesale in the UK or applied to those who didn’t agree to have their disputes arbitrated by Shariah courts but I, like you am a Catholic that has no problems with the Islamic Republic of Iran. I admire Iran because it threw off to yoke of imperialism and resists US colonial aggression. It is also a genuine revolutionary and democratic State.
Steph…
I wouldn’t want to see it applied at all. Women can’t just agree to give up their legal rights.
@ Heather
You do every time you enter a contract and that is what we’re taking about here. It’s no biggie!
Bush has used your argument to justify wholesale murder. “Liberating” Muslim women is hollow and patronising, if they want to adhere to the Shariah – good for them – what is this bizarre idea that its less oppressive to deny Muslim women freedom of religious conscience, than to let them follow their religion?!!
There’s no place for any form of religion in UK law. If people don’t want dodgy Imams making decisions then fortunately the law already has everything in place for them. Only a religious person would think that there’s some kind of necessity for allowing religion into politics and law. It is about time we kicked Rowan Williams and the other 25 Lords Spiritual out of the House of Lords and introduced complete separation between church and state in Britain. Our legal system should be secular; there’s no room for special privileges for those who hold on to Iron Age mythologies.
@ Steph
I wish I was as liberal as you but I have a hard time accepting that women would choose to wear the hijab and not have our human rights but you are right. If they choose it we should respect it but do we have to accept it in our legal system?
Steph, you might find this post interesting. What do you think?
Don’t be so cynical. I’m not a hijab advocate by any means but I fail to see how a mere scarf would threaten your precious human rights.
Ros – “I hate people describing Britain as a “Christian” country.”
Alright, Christianity and democracy be buggered both, we’re not a Muslim country.
Steph is an anarchist, she loves te idea of a Welsh druid, Catholic child molester, mad mullah, turbaned Sikh or hairy-kneed lesbian usurping the authority of the State and making their own bloody rules up as they go along. I, on the other hand, am rather fond on this country and want to preserve a the little bit of law and order that we’ve got left.
I couldn’t care less what they do in their own countries but not here in England.
Steph – “I admire Iran because it threw off to yoke of imperialism and resists US colonial aggression.”
If the Martians invaded earth and started dropping bombs on America, whose side would you be on?
Danial – ” fail to see how a mere scarf would threaten your precious human rights.”
It doesn’t, neither do honour killings, wife beatings and amputations, truth be told. Just be keep quiet about it and we’ll turn a blind eye. What I object to is interference in the legal system.
Yeah, because somehow Muslims are the only one committing honor killings /sarcasm
Do you just purposely ignore the presence of honor killings within Hindu, Sikh and Near Eastern Christian societies just to bash on Islam?
And as for wife beatings, why don’t you come out here to the states and visit a trailer park sometime? Domestic violence is rife there yet I don’t see you speaking out on their plight. Domestic violence is a psychologicial problem regardless of ethnicity and faith. How often do you hear jealous boyfriends beating their girlfriends? Quite often, I might add.
@ Simon
(54) not worthy of a response.
(55) When it happens, I’ll let you know.
(56) Most spousal murders and wife beating in the UK don’t involve Muslims and I haven’t heard of any case where a Muslim has carried out a judicial amputation in the UK.
@ Danial
Sorry, I didn’t see your comment 57.
Thanks for the eteraz link – good points – I’ll post a response over on that blog later this evening or tomorrow.
@ Heather
Absolutely not, I’m not talking about America, that is for the individual States in America to decide. As a general rule, I can’t see why anyone would have problem with a couple agreeing to be bound by an arbitration process, or giving that arbitration process legal recognition.
@ Alastair
You realise that means overthrowing the monarchy and government, disestablishing the Church, and a complete rewriting of every law of the statutes?
I agree with that bit.
But getting rid of religion? Most of the British public describe themselves (nominal at least) as Christian. Any law that does not respect the freedom of conscience is fascist. Surely if we overthrowing the existing order, we should govern ourselves. We don’t need secular fundamentalists dictating to us.
we want a legal frame that serves the “common good” – and herein lies the problem.
The governmnet don’t really care about the ‘common good’ other than some window dressing. I have not seen a governmnet ‘by the people for the people’ in the land of whitey for a long time. Government has always served the Corporatocracy to varying degrees or guises {e.g. Monarchy}. But these days that servitude is nearly 100% and it shows very strongly indeed!
Dr. Williams could say the national dish of the UK has become curry, but the governmnet will in some way get kickbacks from the paxo industry (or what have you) which such denounce such ‘pro-curry’ statements as they will be percieved as threatening.
I would suggest British(English) law has always contained elements of politicizational, and in recent years, that dynamic has come to touch upon Islam as the West for over 100 years has had greater control or influence over territorities associated with Islam and of course over a similiar time frame, oil [and its control feeds the megalithic corporatocrtacy] has also been an issue. As such, British(English) law factors this in and once again, when something comes to challenge that, by means of weakening the ‘iron fist’ of the law to Muslims, as Dr Williams floation of the issue has done, then once again he must be attacked.
As usual, like 9-11 and 7-7, it is a non-Muslim who is at the forefront of challenging this repugnant period of the worlds history while Muslims sit back while their oppression increases by the hour.
Well Dr. Williams. I salute your courage. May it rub off on some those of the Muslim persuasion in positions of power.
@ many…1.Help us when the Martians come for crying out loud at least we’re human.2.Iran has a lot of domestic issues it ignores by scimitar rattling elsewhere.That doesn’t sound like any other country on Earth hhmmmmpphh. 3. Outside of the gutter press,on the ground over there, do the Muslims have a real desire for this ?
Excellent thread thanks to all for an interesting read
Heather (7) Actually the crux of what you are asking is about secularism. Can man have the power to re-write Gods law? – for that is the basis of what Shariah law is. As such, and I’m not going to be an apologist here, Sharia is totally incompatible with secularism. If God decrees the death penalty after a trial, then it must be carried out. If homosexuality is Islamically forbidden then such a position can not be altered. If usury via interest rates for example is outlawed then in Islamic law, this cannot be changed.
To deviate from these is equivalent to (if not actually) an act of Shirk the great sin. However, from my admittedly shallow knowledge of Shariah, there is scope for clemency, i.e. post verdict, sentences can be commuted.
I heard a claimed ‘fact’ a couple of weeks ago that over 1000 years of Islamic rule, less than 100 thieves (not too sure of their crimes) had one hand removed. I don’t know if its true, but it does kind of fly in the face of western perception. I like the question you raised.
To Steph @ 61
I think you overstate the issue slightly. Removing religion from Law does bring into question the legitimacy of the Crown’s right to authority. It doesn’t involve overthrowing the government. It would involve the disestablishment of the Anglican faith, and quite rightly. It wouldn’t require the rewriting of every law in the statutes, but certainly a fair number. Fortunately Evan Harris MP has started on the blasphemy laws already, all going well in future… seperation of church and state is not a radical proposition, it’s true in America (at least in theory) and in a lot of European countries.
You then suggest I said get ridding of religion outright. I didn’t. You’re also incorrect to say the majority of the UK population describe themselves as nominal Christians, the (slight) majority describe themselves as non-religious.
You talk about a law that doesn’t allow freedom of conscience? I only said I wanted a law that didn’t enforce religious conscience or was governed by it. What people do in their private lives is up to them. Enforcing those beliefs on their neighbours is what’s fascist, although again this is alarmist and overstating the matter with emotive language.
Secularism, as seen in the consitution of many of our neighbouring countries, would be the ideal.
Again, overthrowing the existing order is stating things too dramatically. Perhaps your own tendentious religious leanings have caused you to see “secularism in law” as an attack on your personal beliefs?
Alastair, you are wrong on all counts. The majority describe themselves as Christian, and if we became a republic, the government, Parliament, and the judiciary would have no legal authority. Every law on the statutes would be null and void. So they would all need to be re-written and passed into law without Royal assent, even our colonial cousins in the Americas had to do that.
@ Alastair
I don’t overstate the case at all. England is constitutionally a Christian country, if it was to become a secular state, we’d need a new constitution, a new Head of State, the UK would cease to exist, and to rewrite every law, as they would all cease to have effect.
Also the majority of the population do describe themselves as Christian (nominal at least) and unfortunately have no desire to get rid of that parasite and her family. What you’re suggesting would be an undemocratic form of secular fascism.
@ fray
If America was invaded and occupied by Mars, I would support Americas right resist martian colonial aggression by any means.
The majority of Muslims don’t, but a significant minority what some form of legal recognition of the Shariah in family law.
@ Steph 67
New constitution? Great.
New Head of State? OK. What’s wrong with just the PM taking over the role, or a Republican President of some description.
UK would cease to exist? I don’t see why.
Rewrite every law? I very much doubt it. Why would this be the case? Especially in England where common law and stare decisis persist?
Other countries have managed it quite well… for example, Spain after Franco.
The fact is, we don’t need a revolution or whatever, I’m sure a referendum and gradual change would do it. We’re heading that way anyway, generally, it seems.
Anyway, it wasn’t fascism being imposed when Scotland devolved and got a new Parliament, First Minister, primary legislative power, laws, etc. was it?
You’re right that the Queen is a popular enough figure these days, there’s no calls for any change.
I disagree about your statistic, but even if it’s right, there’s plenty of Christians who would prefer secularisation within State. There’s no incongruity between being religious personally and wanting a secular State. A referendum would soon democratically sort this out, surely?
I don’t see any reason for it being fascism of any sort. You just seem to declare this by fiat. It works for a lot of other democratic European countries and, I would argue, is the ideal for a constitution. When America implemented its constitution the majority of Americans were Christian, this didn’t mean imposing a secular State was a type of fascism. I think most Amercians would claim the opposite.